# Sunday, December 7, 2008

Ever since the release of the Entity Framework and the Linq to SQL team’s move to the ADO.NET team we have been hearing about Linq to SQL being dead. The ADO.NET team (which owns the EF as well) released the roadmap where they said:

“We’re making significant investments in the Entity Framework such that as of .NET 4.0 the Entity Framework will be our recommended data access solution for LINQ to relational scenarios.  We are listening to customers regarding LINQ to SQL and will continue to evolve the product based on feedback we receive from the community as well.”

This caused an uproar as you might imagine. So a few days later Tim Mallalieu, PM of the Linq to SQL and Linq to EF teams clarified by saying this:

“We will continue make some investments in LINQ to SQL based on customer feedback. This post was about making our intentions for future innovation clear and to call out the fact that as of .NET 4.0, LINQ to Entities will be the recommended data access solution for LINQ to relational scenarios….We also want to get your feedback on the key experiences in LINQ to SQL that we need to add in to LINQ to Entities in order to enable the same simple scenarios that brought you to use LINQ to SQL in the first place.”

Sounds pretty dead to me. If you don’t believe me, just talk to any Fox Pro developer, VB 6 developer, or any Access developer who loves the Jet engine. They are still “supported” as well. As this has shaken out over the past month or so, there are two camps:

I told you so! and No way man, it is part of the framework, it will be supported for 10 years!

Well they are both wrong.

The I told you so crowd is claiming victory. While Linq to SQL may be dead,  Linq to SQL has a lot of traction in the developer community. According to Data Direct Technologies’s recent .NET Data Access Trends Survey (November 24th, 2008), 8.5% of production .NET applications use Linq to SQL as their primary data access method. While this number is not huge, you can’t ignore these developers voting with their feet by using Linq to SQL in their applications.

The “It is in the Framework” crowd also has it wrong. Just because something is in the Framework does not mean it will have a bright future. Windows Forms is in the framework and WPF is the “preferred” UI for Windows apps. ADO.NET is in the framework and Linq to SQL and EF are suppose to replace that?  Is anyone using System.Object anymore, or are we all using Generics?

So what should the Linq to SQL developer do? Throw it all away and learn EF? Use nHibernate?

No. The Linq to SQL developer should continue to use Linq to SQL for the time being. If the next version of the EF is compelling enough for a Linq to SQL developer to move to EF, their investment in Linq to SQL is transferrable to Linq to Entities. If Linq to SQL developers are to move in the future, Microsoft will have to provide a migration path, guidance, and tools/wizards. (The EF team has started this process with some blog posts, but the effort has to be larger and more coordinated.) When should the Linq to SQL Developers move to the EF? When this happens:

  • The EF feature set is a superset of the Linq to SQL feature set
  • Microsoft provides migration wizards and tools for Linq to SQL developers

If Microsoft is serious about the Entity Framework being the preferred data access solution in .NET 4.0, why will have to do a few things:

  • Make EF 2.0 rock solid. Duh.
  • Explain to us why the EF is needed. What is the problem that the EF is solving? Why is EF a better solution to this problem? This  My big criticism of the EF team, the feedback I gave them at the EF Council meeting, is that they are under the assumption that “build it they will come” and have not provided the compelling story as to why one should use EF. Make that case to us!
  • Engage with the Linq to SQL crowd. This group can continue to provide feedback to the EF team since Linq to SQL has many features that EF/Linq to Entities needs.
  • Engage with the nHibernate crowd. Data Direct Technologies’s survey says that 18% of all .NET production applications use a framework like nHibernate, Open Access, or Spring.NET. (they also included ASP AJAX in this question, which is strange to me.) While you may not win all of these people over, you should find out what they like about their tools.
  • Engage with the “stored procedure” crowd.  The EF team on several occasions said that “Nobody is building an application using stored procedures and straight ADO anymore.” According to Data Direct Technologies’s survey, almost 65% of .NET developers are using straight Stored Procedures and ADO.NET and 14% are using the Enterprise Library, which is just a wrapper for SPs and ADO.NET. I am not attacking or defending this architectural decision, but the EF team has to realize that if this many of their customers are using this approach and there needs to be guidance, training, and migration tools, not to mention a compelling reason to move to EF.

How will this shake out? I can’t tell you since I have no idea.The EF team (and nHibernate crowd) talk like the train has arrived at the destination already while in reality it has not even left the station. We are still at the station buying tickets (to an unknown destination). Stay tuned.

posted on Sunday, December 7, 2008 10:14:31 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)  #    Comments [9] Trackback
Related posts:
Speaking on OData in Cape Town
Telerik Data Services Wizard Updates
OData at VSLive Redmond
Using Telerik’s new LINQ implementation with WCF RIA Services Part IV: Making an OData feed from your Domain Service
Using Telerik’s new LINQ implementation with WCF RIA Services Part III: Adding a Metadata Class
Using Telerik’s new LINQ implementation with WCF RIA Services Part II: Query Methods
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"Entity Framework and LINQ to SQL" (Bill Blogs in C#) [Trackback]
"http://srtsolutions.com/blogs/billwagner/archive/2009/01/15/entity-framework-an... [Pingback]
tomcabanski [Trackback]
"http://beta.geeks.ms/ddaz/2008/12/08/una-cortita-link-sobre-linq-is-linq-to-sql... [Pingback]
Monday, December 8, 2008 1:26:08 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
I've just finished up writing the LINQ to SQL chapter for the "MCTS Self-Paced Training Kit (Exam 70-561): Microsoft® .NET Framework 3.5—ADO.NET Application Development".
If you want to certify yourself as a .NET 3.5 certified developer and you pick this exam, then you'll have to learn LINQ to SQL to pass the exam.
Like you say Steve, the technology will be around for a while.

Cheers,
Mark

See: http://www.microsoft.com/MSPress/books/12488.aspx
Monday, December 8, 2008 12:10:58 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
Hi, Steve,

Very interesting post.

Would you provide a link to the DataDirect survey you mentioned? I can't find it with expected search terms.

Thanks in advance,

--rj
Monday, December 8, 2008 4:04:57 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
... on the ADO.NET side of things, SP's + Ent. Lib. are very solid ground, and as you say, they must provide a very good reason (or two) if they expect us to move to EF (and re-learn how to access the relational dababase and convince the dba to allow us access to tables).
Specially, for me, LinQ to sql is the same thing as writing sql in the code (with old ado), and seeing that Ent.Lib. does great job I'm not even bothered to look what's EF is all about. They have to provide information on why we should move, what are the problems it solves and why we can't solve this problems with the tools we already have.

DL.
David Lay
Monday, December 8, 2008 10:35:22 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
We were about to start using Linq to SQL for a major refactor, then the bottom dropped out. We have a requirement to be database agnostic so EF will not work for us, sure there is talk about EF supporting non microsoft databases, I'll believe it when I see it. In the meantime we'll be going down the nHibernate path.
derek
Tuesday, December 9, 2008 5:34:14 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
@Stephen,

You're saying that the "it is in the framework crowd" has it wrong and using "Windows Forms is in the framework and WPF is the “preferred” UI for Windows apps." to emphasize that. I'd argue that WPF vs Winforms shows exactly why Microsoft's statements on "preferred" or "recommended" technologies shows exactly why L2S is not dead.

In the real world a lot (read: majority) of people are using Winforms instead of WPF, Linq-to-SQL instead of EF, traditional ADO.NET instead of L2S/EF, ASP.NET Webforms+AJAX instead of Silverlight, and for good reasons. Just like Winforms is a stable and established UI platform, Linq-to-SQL is a stable, efficient and easy to use data access platform with lots of extensibility points allowing developers and third parties to extend it with new functionality. Some of it may be 'hacks' but by the time EFv2 is released (in 2010?) and stable (6-12 months later?) I think L2S is likely to have a very large user base (and lots of third party extensions to both the runtime and designer/development tools).

The sad thing is that Microsoft's premature statements about what will be their "recommended" data access technologies in .net 4.0 will probably shy a lot of users away from the stable, efficient, easy to use L2S in favor of third-party OR mappers or no-OR-mapper solutions.

Simply providing 'conversion tools' and wizards by the time EFv2 is out (and stable) will not be enough to get everyone to move over to EF. There will have to be a lot more compelling reasons than that. E.g. productivity improving features in the VS2010 EF designer, more intelligent query analysis at design time etc.
Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:44:20 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
I don't know about anyone else, but I love Linq to SQL. It is easy, simplistic and it provides its own data access layer. It takes care of stored procedures where I no longer need SPs. I love Linq to Sql. I use it in all my apps and the hype over Ling to Entities is poor. I have only heard about linq to Entities and not actually used it. I don't even know how to implement it. Thats how bad entities are. Linq is the universal. It is the big boy in town and I wont give it up anytime soon.
Tuesday, December 9, 2008 5:42:04 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
What's the link to the survey?
Joe
Tuesday, December 9, 2008 10:51:34 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
Hello-

@Roger-I can't agree more on the Enterprise Lib. I use it more and more these days.

@Scott, I can't seem to find a public link to the survey. Anyone who wants it, email me and I will send you one.
Stephen Forte
Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:20:43 PM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)
@Stephen,

Off-topic: What browser is your blog optimized for? A bit of whitespace and margins/padding would do a lot to make it easier to read in IE7. (esp. a bit of whitespace between entries in the comment section)
Comments are closed.